Experience vs Skill vs Knowledge

    • 5420 posts
    March 17, 2012 7:47 AM PDT
    As I sit here watching the Daytona 200 Motorcycle race with 3 or 4 teanages in the lead pack it got me to thinking about whether skill actually requires experience or for that matter if experience & knowledge really equal skill.

    We have lots of very experienced riders here on CF and lots of very skilled riders, but they can be mutually exclusive.  When you think about it how many people are on the road who have been driving a car for over 30 years and still can't drive worth a damn.  I think the same holds true for motorcycle riders too.  I remember when I was in the local HOG Chapter we had a women who had been riding for over 20 years, but yet she was affraid to ride her bike through a tight parking lot and would stop in the street so her could come park it for her, and following her through a twisty road was just plain scarey.  However I also remember back when I first started racing and I was mostly doing club races; everyone on the track was under 20 years old with just a few years riding experience and the good ones were outstanding riders who could ride an 1100cc racing machine in any track condition - including rain - and could also handle emergencys as well as any "experienced"  rider.

    I am not saying that experience does not improve your riding capibilities, but experience alone doesn't make you a good rider if you're just riding and not really learning to ride.  Some have even gone to a number of riding classes and still can't ride (guess that's about the same as going through 12 years of school and not being able to read

    So to all of you newer riders out there - you can become a great rider if you actually LEARN to ride and don't just ride.  Don't let anyone tell you that you can't get good and ride the bike YOU WANT TO RIDE in a short period of time.  And remeber when your taking riding adice from people - whether it be here or at the local hang out - just becuase someone tells you they have been riding for 20 plus years doesn't make them an qualified instructor, or even a good rider for that matter.

    Just one mans obsevation - Now back to watching the youngsters race motorcycles at Daytona and Race Cars at Bristol!
    • 1855 posts
    March 17, 2012 9:27 AM PDT
      But as for racing; ya gotta figure Kahunas a viable tool as well. 

    Peace
    • 601 posts
    March 17, 2012 9:30 AM PDT
    Agree with ya lucky, my son is a cracking hill-climber and moto-cross rider with a few wins under his saddle, but as a road rider he's pure crap, so bad he stopped. i have 30 years experience on the road and would honestly say that all that experience has just made me more aware of the hazards of riding...does that make me a better rider ? probably not !! just makes me a live one.
    • 844 posts
    March 17, 2012 10:12 AM PDT


    Thanks for sharing your thoughts... Now go get some GREEN BEER!!!!



    • 601 posts
    March 17, 2012 10:24 AM PDT
    GoFur wrote...


    Thanks for sharing your thoughts... Now go get some GREEN BEER!!!!





    Green beer is OK goin' down Gofur......................... tis the comin' out part worries me.. Happy Pats day anyway, tho' its near over here now.

  • March 17, 2012 10:44 AM PDT
    I agree too!!! When first started riding I was on a Sporty and soon after wanted a Softail Deluxe. I go so tired of hearing "that's way too big for you"... "you should stay on a smaller bike for a few years". Most came from people who were riding for years, and even though I did appreciate their advice and concern, when you asked most of them they would tell you they were riding big sport bikes or big Harleys way back when. Most would justify it with "well things were different back then", or "we didn't even have riders course back then, so we had to learn to ride ourselves".

    Well I did take the course, then the advance course and I practiced and practiced on my Sporty. Not just riding, but making a conscious effort to learn to ride (like Lucky said). I was up and riding my Delux within 6 months and have been told by many that I am a damn good rider and could ride with them any time. After a few years now, I'm still learning and getting more experience and I know it will take a while to go from a good/capibnle rider to an excellent rider.
    • 844 posts
    March 17, 2012 10:52 AM PDT
    That's okay Rory, after I have enough I just stand in the front lawn pretending to be a St Patty's Day fountain statue

    p.s. - Is anyone else waiting to see if Lucky get blasted here- you all know what I'm talking about 
  • March 17, 2012 11:01 AM PDT
    Not to debate this topic, but i dont think you should downplay the value of experience. While experience alone is not enough it is very useful in anticipating hazards and other peoples moves.I know that experience can breed bad habits but as rory1 says it has made him more aware and maybe kept him alive.i too have been there.A saftey course should be mandatory in all fifty states because experience alone will not always show you the best way to get something done,Confidence is a big plus too but you should not be too cocky.And on a last note both experience and a good saftey course will give you plenty of knowledge needed to ride combine the three and you will be as best as you can be.
    • 1 posts
    March 17, 2012 11:14 AM PDT
    I agree with the original post and the one right above. There are some things that are learned from experience, just as they are in anything in life.

    But I read Lucky's original post as experience does not necessarily make you a better rider in all cases. As he pointed out some people ride for years but never make a conscious effort to get any better at it, and after 20 years I wouldn't ride near them or take advice from them.

    I also agree with Sweet that if you really want to learn how to ride safely and capably you can do so and don't have to wait 10 years before you can ride a Big Boy (or Big Girl) bike.

    I ride and see with lots of riders of all different riding abilities and it isn't always the guy that's been riding for 30 years that rides the best.
    • 5420 posts
    March 17, 2012 11:30 AM PDT
    Exactly BailOut. My point was not that experience is not very valuable, just that experience does NOT always make for a better rider. And you can also become a very capable rider if you focus on learning how to ride!

    There is definitely benefits to years of experience, but on the flip side the only way to get experience is to ride.
  • March 17, 2012 12:12 PM PDT
    I am in line with you guys,as far as learning and knowledge.but where do we learn from?is it a saftey course, is it from watching others, is it from experience?i say it is from every way you can.but until you get on that bike you cannot apply anything you have learned except what has come from experience.a saftey course should be a must for new riders and it will not hurt us "old timers" so to speak to refresh every so often..so that said knowledge,practice,saftey course and experience will all benefit some one who rides.skill can only be obtained by practice which is experience. to know when and why to apply these skills is part knowledge,instinct and experince.the latter which can breed bad habits if one does not have the knowledge to know better.
  • March 17, 2012 3:51 PM PDT
    I agree Lucky. When I first got started, well, God looks after children and fools. Some of the best advice I've received is from motorcycle magazines about counter steering, breaking, picking lines in curves, keeping your head level and eyes looking while taking in everything around you, looking for that person that may pull out in front of you or in your lane, etc. A key is getting the right advice and practicing it until it becomes second nature.
    We all have the potential to be better and safer bikers. That adds up to more fun.
    • 3006 posts
    March 17, 2012 6:11 PM PDT
    Lucky

    I used to go watch the local flat dirt track races with my Dad back in the day,I would often wonder just how much experience one could gain before actually riding on the track in a real race?? My dad would tell me its outta the question & I never was encouraged to race lol ever. tho my Dad loved riding too.I had to buy my first bike in secret n hide it at a buddys house.

    All my prior experience with bikes growing up,was on loaner bikes,all the times I messed up increased my skills & experience for that day when I actually owned my own ..then the learning curve started all over again.I had rode for years with friends,yet when i had my own bike it was totally new again to a degree.

    All riders can use a refresher course now & then yet I would hate to see the state institute any new laws requiring it either.
    Some folks are just plain bad drivers,dont matter if its a bike or a car LOL they cant help it,how they have survived this long ??? only the Lord knows
  • March 17, 2012 7:36 PM PDT
    Lucky, you have great advice.

    Albiet I don't have near the experience as lots of others, I try to get as much "training" and also apply it as possible.

    I started out with the MSF,  and now after many miles have also attended Streetmasters  which is a  track (NOT Racing)   clinic that teaches how to take proper lines on turns.

    As a long time ski racer I see the lines! look ahead.

    LOOK WHERE YA GOING NOT WHERE YA AT!


  • March 18, 2012 2:15 AM PDT

    Well, I guess a little bit of input from London here may be interesting or even amusing for you, I dont live all that far from where the start of this was filmed, about 5 miles...London is like 23 miles across from North to South and it is said it is up to 33 miles from East to West., and it is getting bigger all the time, almost daily.......not all of it looks like this vid.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLSSDDXzaMs />  

    In London, in fact in all of UK it is LEGAL to filter your way through traffic, over here we do not have to sit in traffic jams, in UK we can ride between vehicles legally.....This adds a whole new dimension to riding a Motorcycle...we are not just talking about negotiating corners while out riding, the standard of car-van-truck-bus driving in London would make South Central Chicago look real tame by comparrison...


    Now I dont know how many of you in USA live in the bigger city areas and ride there, but over here the population of static London outnumbers head for head of population at least 4 times as many as most major cities in USA, and then there is the addition of over 1 million who commute in-and out of London EVERY day...the population of people who live in London?......London Population is 7556900.....now add another million...and that is the traffic we contend with EVERY day of the week...weekends are just as bad...lol...the place is full of tourists ALL the time!!!


    Have any of you ridden in UK?  Have any of you ridden in London?  I have ridden ALL over the East Coast side of USA, as far inland as Milwaukee to the North...and Kentucky, and Louisianna in the Southern end and of course right down into Florida......


    I have never found anything that even slightly compares to riding in London, your roads and main roads are well set out with spacious room to turn at all the junctions, the dotted lines to establish your lane as you turn left at major intersections, straight on across these junctions is pure logic, turning right on a Red Light is an excellent idea, and of course it works well, look left, see the right kind of space and go.....ALL your main roads and link roads between towns and road layout junctions and intersections are so logical.....We dont have anything much to compare to your road systems...
    I prefer your road layouts to ours here in UK...


    Over here when I passed my Motorcycle test it was a very basic thing...they just wanted to know that you could handle the thing without crashing or skidding...so I passed on my birthday at 16years old, the very day my learner licence started, since having been hit by a couple of vehicles inside this last 12 years -who were 100% at fault I might add... I decided that I would go out and take the NEWEST Riding Test...this is so much more than I had to do back in 1969...Test then was around 10 to 15 minutes, The new one lasts nearly 2 hours now, and it is very intensive, it consists of 3 direct separate parts on 3 separate days...


    The first is the CBT which is a very basic competency test that EVERYONE has to pass before being allowed on ANY public road, fail this too many times and they revoke your learner permit and send you off to school...

    http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/LearnerAndNewDrivers/RidingMotorcyclesAndMopeds/DG_4022430 />

    The 2nd part is known as the theory test, its an observation and a written examination, this involves a question and answer section, a section where you are given multiple choice answers, and watching a video and clicking the mouse button at any sign of potential danger...click it not enough-FAIL, click it too many times-FAIL, click it at any time there is no obvious potential danger-FAIL, be too slow clicking at any potential threat-FAIL,  click it exactly close and in a quick response to every potential threat = PASS!!! 

    Try it for yourself here...
      http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Diol1/DoItOnline/Doitonlinemotoring/DG_4017669 />

    3rd part is the practical riding skills part.  They have divided EVERY section of the new test into 3 possible direct fails and 9 three part fails for each and every manouevere...this now translates to over 200 possible fail points...you even have to be able to swerve and safely brake as in an emergency stop avoiding hitting an object, or vehicle or person etc... and you have to do it without skidding and without going too far - meaning you have to be absolutely accurate with knowing EXACTLY how much pressure to apply to your brakes...


    ANY variation to doing ALL these parts accurately and you fail,


    I will add more to this, including the actual test IF I can find it anywhere......later...

    • Moderator
    • 19067 posts
    March 18, 2012 5:19 AM PDT
    Agreeing with ya Lucky and would like to add that if we riders use the experience to learn then skill and experience are mutually supporting. If a rider does not remember and learn then I doubt if that rider truly had the skill level required. Fear and negative reinforcement from childhood will greatly effect skill. Self confidence is key to almost every endeavor.

    And I am surprised at Neil's son being unable to handle the street when he is obviously capable of controlling the bike. I wonder if there is not a sub-conscious fear of the other people on the road?
  • March 18, 2012 5:36 AM PDT
    An Excellent bit of Motorcycle riding by an advanced rider up in the West Midlands ...


    Very Realistic Riding from an experienced rider... ..



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfGXi8b-gO0&feature=relmfu />


    and then a bit of fun to music...lol.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9M83O2mpEk&feature=fvwp&NR=1 />


    Entertained? Sure...lol...


    My honest opinion?  If you dont have a full combination of balance, ability, skill, good judgement,  co-ordination,  practice each and every time you go out - then you should survive.....EVERY time you go out on a Motorcycle will be totally different, there will be a variety of things that make EVERY ride different, from different people doing different things, some idiot in a cage is going to pull out on you, turn across your path unexpectedly, or in some other unique way will try to make you have a real bad day (crash).








    Find it informative?  I hope so...
  • March 18, 2012 5:40 AM PDT
    Rex, your hit it right on with the confidence thing. Someone who is confident can learn to ride or do anything much faster. It is almost impossible to learn if constantly in fear of failure. My husband and I learned to ride well in a short period of time because we both knew it was something we wanted to do and could do.

    Also agreeing with those above that somethings can only be learned from experience, but that true in everything in life. But the most important thing is you have got to start doing something before you can ever get experience.
  • March 18, 2012 11:18 AM PDT
    Agrees experience doesn't equal a skilled rider, 1,000 miles doesn't either nor does 100,000 miles, the amount of years ya been riding or the fact that ya haven't had any issues doesn't equal a skilled rider. I've seen some fantastic riders of 2 years, and some piss poor ones at 40 years. I do believe that 3 things come in to play, experience, learning and continue learning skills, and the desire to or drive to constantly challange yourself to improve. The MSF, whomever said I agree all 50 states ought to consider it as part of getting a M endoursement, but then again it ought to be done for the driver's license to begin with. Driving isn't a right, and we shouldn't treat it as such.
    Experience: well that's is the amount of time years, miles however ya want to view it. Thousands of mile following another around or may or may not increase skills, why for as a "throttle Master" if your not thinking as your following, then you are gaining only miles. If one refuses to ride on highways and has been riding 20 years, that person is just riding for years. Experience I think has to do with the combination of Years, Miles, and Challenges presented. If one has riden 10 years and 20,000 miles and not once it the rain, or wet surfaces, their personal experience is lacking greatly, why? Well, wet happens, that rider can continue to avoid it yes but their personal experience is lacking, If the same roads are always ridden then is there any challenge there? Not really for the road or roads are memorized which the rider responds to, however they also know where the hill is or that wide sweeper is located in the road and can act out of memory more so than react to the change in terrain. So experience to me is a combination of miles, years, different terrains, different road conditions, Mother Nature at her best and worst, in traffic, not traffic, alone, with others, road obsticals and challanges.
    Skill: can be developed by MSF, IRC and ERC, also reading, and practicing the skills knowing that what was taught was practiced correctly. It can also come from the miles, years, and different road conditions, and Mother Nature. Now what to remember is this, bad habits or incorrect excution of a maneuver, can develop skills that are undesired, that may get a rider by for a while or a long while but at this point one is just lucky.
    Learning and desire: I think that this is important, cause if you want to learn you can and you will. However if you don't continuously apply what is learned while gaining experience, and developing skills a rider might find themselves on the lucky side not the learned side of riding. The desire to continue to learn comes from the desire to want to be better and improve, if you master the smooth braking technique, then learning to feather the brakes and such is most excellent, however if ya can't stop by basic maneuvers, more advanced maneuvers may or most likely not will not be able to be applied either. To continue learning is to challange yourself with the different road conditions, because it is not uncommon to be heading down a paved road, and come across construction sites, roads that may go from paved to gravel, some turn to dirt, there are the hills, city and intercity as well as forest and open highways. Then to this add Mother Nature, the ability to learn wet, dry, dust hot, cold also matters, Sometimes learning helps to decided when to call it a day or not.
    The combination of all three is what makes a skilled experienced rider. I believe that anyone can learn on any bike they want, however riders need to keep in mind what the bike is designed to do. If you go out and buy an R6 and are shocked to find that while learning on this bike it tends to respond very quickly and your prefere something not so fast out of the line, then the R6 is not for you. However If you love the quick responce of the R6 and it isn't intimadating at all then the R6 is for you. In the same token ya go and get the rebel 250, and know that you want some pep and plan on riding it on the highway to work, the rebel may not be a good choice it might seem like it at first cause it less than intimadating maybe something like the R6 might have been the better choice. All riders start as terrible, really we are. However Terrible can stay terrible, or can advace to ok, then good, then excellent. Its possible and heck there are thousands of riders out there to prove the fact. Riding isn't for everyone, and not everyone ought to be out on the roads on two, some no matter how hard they try just can't grasp the concepts of riding and that is ok. have a great one! "T"